Oxen towing Serbian Artillery

Oxen towing Serbian Artillery

Oxen towing Serbian Artillery

Here we see a column of Serbian artillery being towed by oxen. They are probably Schnieder 75mm quick firing guns. The column is heading towards the River Drina, where the Serbs were unable to stop the Austrian advance. Belgrade fell, but the Austrians were then defeated and forced to withdraw.


The First Allied Soldier Killed By Enemy Fire on D-Day – Lieutenant Den Brotheridge At Pegasus Bridge

Lieutenant Herbert Denham “Den” Brotheridge, Commander of 25 Platoon, D Company, 2 nd Battalion of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry holds an honored place in history marked by his death almost 20 minutes after midnight on June 6 th , 1944.

Brotheridge was shot down by a German machine gunner while leading the charge of D Company on a mission vital to the D-Day landings in Normandy. He is remembered as the first Allied soldier and British officer killed in action on D-Day.

Though often fabled for his death, the story of Brotheridge’s service and that of his comrades, often called the 2 nd Ox and Bucks, their mission into German Occupied France on that monumental day, is one of clever tactics and swift, courageous action.

Brotheridge was born in Smethwick, Staffordshire in 1915 and commissioned into the 2 nd Battalion Ox and Bucks in 1942 under the command of Major John Howard. The Battalion was airborne light infantry and, more specifically, glider troops.

These men were trained to drop undetected into enemy territory in Airspeed Horsa gliders, a craft looking much like any transport plane of the time, but made mostly of wood and with no engine. The Horsa, which could carry around 25 soldiers and their equipment or even jeeps or light tanks, would be towed into the air by a bomber and then released to glide silently towards their target, the pilot picking a clear landing space and touching down, hopefully without obliterating the plane.

Troops inside an Airspeed Horsa Glider

This method of airdropping infantry into the battlefield had its pros and cons in comparison to paratroopers, but the British use of gliders in the Invasion of Normandy was very well coordinated, undetected before landing, and hugely successful in its vital role. It didn’t experience the terribly high number of casualties paratroopers in the early morning, lit up by searchlights and flak cannons, did.

Major Howard and his men were chosen for Operation Deadstick. Howard rode in the first of six Horsa’s, the one with his good friend Brotheridge and his platoon. The 2 nd Ox and Bucks’ D Company, an attached platoon of Royal Engineers, and the trained glider pilots (totaling 180 men) were pulled into the air in their Horsa’s at 20 minutes before midnight, June 5 th , 1944.

Airspeed Horsa in tow

Once over the English Channel, the bombers towing them released their cables and sent them soaring through the night towards their target: two bridges over the Caen Canal and River Orne a few miles North East of Caen. If they failed to fulfill their objectives, British forces landing on Sword Beach would either have no exit to the East or be faced by German troops and tanks crossing en masse.

This coup-de-main, rapid surprise attack, first touched down on Normandy 16 minutes after midnight on June 6 th , right outside their target. Brotheridge’s platoon’s Horsa and two others come down hard West of the Bénouville Bridge (now named Pegasus Bridge in honor the 2 nd Ox and Bucks whose uniform is adorned with a Pegasus) over the Caen Canal.

As the gliders crash-landed, many men were knocked unconscious or otherwise injured. One Horsa snapped in half, sending the knocked-out Lance-Corporal Fred Greenhalgh flying into a pond where he drowned (perhaps the first lost hero of D-Day, but not killed by enemy fire).

The crashed Horsas of the three 2nd Ox and Bucks platoons that took the Bénouville Bridge over the Caen Canal

The surviving men quickly and quietly gathered together. To the hushed call of Brotheridge, “come on lads,” his platoon rallied and they hurried, first towards battle and the bridge.

Though the Germans knew these back-to-back water crossings to be one of the most strategically vital points in all of occupied France, they were caught off guard. Only two sentries stood guard.

The two German soldiers jumped into action as they spotted the onrush of British soldiers emerging from the darkness. “Fallschirmjäger!Fallschirmjäger!” (German for paratrooper) one shouted as he ran for the trench on the opposite side of the bridge. The other guard quickly fired a flare into the night sky as Brotheridge simultaneously opened fire, killing him just a moment too late.

Brotheridge’s platoon worked fast. Two men dropped grenades into the pillboxes on the West side of the bridge, stopping the German soldiers inside from detonating the explosives which were in place to tear the bridge apart, lest it fall into enemy hands. Fire was returned to the Germans now shooting from the opposite shore.

By 12:21 AM, five minutes after Brotheridge’s platoon hit the ground, they captured the bridge and secured it’s defenses. Before long, Howard received word that his men had captured both bridges and they would hold them until more British forces arrived from the beaches later that morning.

But it wasn’t all good news for Howard. Two under his command had been killed. The first, just after landing and now his dear friend Brotheridge had been killed in action.

As the German sentry’s flare lit the night and gunfire ripped across the canal, a German machine gunner set up in a cafe on the far bank fired a burst at Brotheridge, hitting his neck and back. Brotheridge fell to the ground and died soon after.

Lieutenant Den Brotheridge is buried in Ranville, Normandy France, across the Caen Canal and Orne River from the place he fell.

He was a brave a leader and now, buried in a cemetery not far from where he fell, he is remembered as the first Allied soldier of thousands more to fall on D-Day. Before he left on his mission, he had been a remarkable footballer and cricket player and hoped to return to his athletic career after the war. He was also married to Margaret Plant who was eight months pregnant with their daughter the night he flew to Normandy.


Animals of the Armies

Animals played important roles in the Civil War for a variety of reasons. Horses, mules, and oxen were used for transportation. They pulled supply wagons, ambulances, artillery pieces, and anything else that needed to be moved. Officers directed battle from horseback, messengers on horses made communication more efficient, and cavalrymen lived and fought in the saddle. Acquiring, feeding, and caring for these animals was a massive, but necessary undertaking. The men often developed close bonds to particular horses and mules and were devastated when they were killed.

"A horse for military service is as much a military supply as a barrel of gunpowder or a shotgun or rifle." Union Quartermaster Montgomery C. Meigs

Transportation, Food, Mascots

Union horses

Army regulations made no provisions for mascots, but many units adopted them as symbols of loyalty and devotion. Most mascots were dogs, but cats, pigs, and goats also served in that honorable position for units on both sides. One of the most famous mascots of the war was "Old Abe," a bald eagle, who flew over the 8th Wisconsin Volunteers at 36 different battles. He survived the war and lived in the Wisconsin capitol building until he was killed in a fire at the age of 44.

Other mascots included gamecocks, donkeys, and a camel named Douglas, who carried supplies for the 43rd Mississippi. There were also several regiments who kept bears as pets. The 26th Wisconsin, honoring the "Badger State," kept one of those ferocious animals as their mascot.

Not all animals were lucky enough to be treated as heroic mascots or loyal mounts. Many animals, especially cattle, were used as an important food source for both armies. Columns of troops and wagon trains were often followed by huge herds of "beef on the hoof." Chickens, pigs, and cattle were slaughtered and served in camps. Millions more were processed in factories and salted for shipment to hungry soldiers. When the armies didn't have enough, local animals served as meals. Sometimes buying, sometimes just taking, soldiers used private farms and barns to fill their bellies, often decimating local stores and herds.

Feeding an Army

A cook in a Union camp

Napoleon once said, "An army marches on its stomach," meaning to have an effective army, the men must be fed. While corn meal, hardtack, potatoes, beans, salt, sugar, and coffee were all part of a soldier's diet, meat remained the most important source of protein for men marching, working, and fighting on long campaigns. Chickens, hogs, and cattle were all transported with the armies on the march, with larger quantities slaughtered by civilian contractors and shipped to the front. Second only to ammunition, quartermasters worked tirelessly to keep soldiers supplied with food.

During the Maryland Campaign, in fields around Frederick, army butchers took cattle from the large herds moving with the wagon trains and distributed the meat to the men along with salt pork in barrels. When the men felt that these rations were not enough, they sought bigger and better meals on their own. Sometimes they hunted deer and fished in rivers. Packages from relatives and friends also often contained some kind of food. Sutlers, private sellers, also mingled with men in the camps, selling them what the army could not provide. All too often, though, men on the march took what they needed from farms and villages. Confiscating animals and stripping fields of crops helped feed the armies, but depleted the supplies for civilians, often leading to poverty and famine.

The Mules of War

Mules pulling a Civil War supply wagon

Mules powered C&O Canal boats. Teams of four animals, two pulling while two rested in the boat mule barn, pulled the boats laden with up to 130 tons of coal or other cargo. At its peak, over 500 boats traveled the canal, bringing the total number of mules on the 184.5 mile towpath to over 2,000.

During the Civil War mules also pulled wagons and guns in the Confederate and the Union supply trains. During the Maryland Campaign the Union Army used over 10,000 mules to help transport their supplies. During the war, canal workers feared their mules may be confiscated by troops or raiders, leaving the canal boats without their source of power.

As Confederate troops passed through the Antietam area, canal worker Jacob McGraw noted, "Stragglers were running around robbing the houses of people who'd gone away, and they got in my house and just took everything. Besides, they took five mules of mine out of a field where I kept `em. Them were mules that did my towing on the canal."


Former Soviet Union/Russia [ edit | edit source ]

  • MT-LBu - This larger variant of the MT-LB that has the longer chassis and stronger engine of the 2S1 could be considered a derivative of the 2S1.
  • UR-77 "Meteorit" (ustanovka razminirovaniya) - A mine clearing vehicle with a turret-like superstructure bearing two launch ramps. The ramps are used to fire rockets towing hose-type mine-clearing line charges. A single charge can clear an area of 90 m by 6 m. The UR-77 is the successor to the BTR-50 based UR-67.
  • RKhM "Kashalot" (razvedivatel’naya khimicheskaya mashina) - Chemical reconnaissance vehicle with detection, marking and alarm devices. This model has the hull shape and single rear door of the 2S1, but with the short chassis and machine gun turret of the MT-LB. Former Western designation: ATV M1979/4.
    • RKhM-K - Command version with additional signal equipment but without sensors or markers.

    Poland [ edit | edit source ]

    The 2S1 Gvozdika (as well as other related vehicles such as the MT-LB and Opal) were produced in Poland by Huta Stalowa Wola under the name 2S1 Goździk.

    • 2S1M Goździk - Version with special amphibious kit that increases the vehicle's amphibious capabilities.
    • 2S1T Goździk - Version with a TOPAZ digital fire control system from WB electronics. The system consists of a FONET-IP digital intercom system, new digital radio, military GPS receiver, military computer and dedicated software. The same system is used on other Polish Armed Forces artillery systems like the AHS Krab, Dana-T and WR-40 Langusta.
    • Rak carrier (Rak is polish for crayfish) - A new 120mm mortar turret with an automatic feed system intended to be installed on existing 2S1 chassis as well as in the wheeled KTO Rosomak chassis.
    • LPG (LPG for Lekkie Podwozie Gąsiennicowe – lit. Light Tracked Chassis) - A chassis of a surplus 2S1 Goździk converted into an Armored Personnel Carrier. The original gun turret was removed, the upper part of the vehicle was redesigned, and the old engine replaced with a modern MTU diesel engine. The vehicle is used as a command vehicle for the AHS Krab howitzer and Rak mortar units and as medical or technical support vehicles.

    Romania [ edit | edit source ]

    Iran [ edit | edit source ]

    Bulgaria [ edit | edit source ]

    • BMP-23 (Bojna mashina na pekhotata) - Infantry fighting vehicle with 2A14 23mm gun and ATGM 9K11 "Malyutka" in a 2-man turret. The chassis is based on the one from the MT-LB but with components of the 2S1 and fitted with a 315 hp engine.
      • BMP-23D - Improved version with 9K111 "Fagot" and smoke grenade launchers.
      • BRM-23 - Reconnaissance version. Prototype.

      Sudan [ edit | edit source ]


      General Services

      Manpower and Personnel Service

      The Manpower and Personnel is tasked with managing human resources, thus providing and preparing, according to the structural requirements, the required number of personnel (by their qualifications, education, specialties, work experience, etc.) for efficient functioning of the Serbian Armed Forces.

      The Manpower and Personnel has the mission to: supervise and analyze manning to make annual and mid-term planning in order to provide all categories of personnel to carry out activities related to recruitment, selection and admission of personnel to plan career of personnel to provide direct personnel service support to evaluate efficiency and capability of personnel to carry out activities related to promotion of personnel to plan education of personnel in the country and aboard and their selection to keep records of personnel and make documents on personnel records to monitor and report on peacetime and wartime manning.

      Some changes have resulted from development and modernization of the armed forces, not only in physical but also human resources, thus urging the Manpower and Personnel to follow the changes and undertake adequate measures in order to address ever-growing challenges. The Manpower and Personnel is characterized by its ability to follow and adjust the development of the armed forces, as well as to undertake adequate measures.

      The Manpower and Personnel Service exists in all units, commands and institutions of the Serbian Armed Forces, the battalion being the lowest one. The Manpower and Personnel Service is organized into departments, sections, groups and cells. Depending on the command level and line of duty, each of these units carries out tasks related to personnel.

      The Manpower and Personnel Service is one of the newest services in the Serbian Armed Forces, since it was officially introduced as the general service in 2008. September 1 is the Day of the Manpower and Personnel, because on this date the so called “personnel year” begins and the most important activities from this field are carried out and analyzed until this date.

      The Manpower and Personnel has existed almost since establishing the armed forces as an institution, but certainly since establishing the modern armed forces. Today it is impossible to imagine any armed forces without a professional manpower and personnel service.

      Telecommunication and Information Systems Service

      The Telecommunication and Information Systems Service has the mission to provide the Ministry of Defence and the Serbian Armed Forces with uninterrupted telecommunication and information support, and security of information in peacetime, states of emergency and wartime.

      The Telecommunication and Information Systems Service support is responsible for dissemination, sharing and security of information, being supported by the adequate telecommunication and information system.

      The Telecommunication and Information Systems Service is tasked with planning, dissemination, sharing, electronic processing and protecting of information for the needs of the defense system of the Republic of Serbia. These tasks are carried out by the Telecommunication and Information Systems Service in cooperation with other holders of the telecommunication and information systems.

      The Telecommunication and Information Systems Service is divided into two services, but basically they are the unified entity making projects and building the telecommunication and information system of the Ministry of Defence and the Serbian Armed Forces, with the aim to provide telecommunication and information support for the needs of the Ministry of Defence and the Serbian Armed Forces.

      The main implementers of the telecommunication and information support in the Ministry of Defence and the Armed Forces are bodies, units and institutions of the telecommunication service and information service, which cooperate on carrying out tasks with other holders of telecommunication and information systems.

      Depending on the unit of the Armed Forces which it supports, the aim to be achieved, its significance and the number of the measures undertaken, the telecommunication and information support in the Armed Forces is planned, organized and continuously delivered at the strategic, operational and tactical level.

      Telecommunication

      At the proposal of the Minister of War, on September 20, 1916, the crown prince Aleksandar Karađorđević, approved the Regulation on Military Telegraph, based on which the signal units were drawn out from the engineer branch and became battalion-regiment size units, as a result of which, the signal units became the independent army branch.

      On passing the Regulation, the foundations of organizing signal units in the Serbian Army were laid. The signal units have evolved and been modernized until present day along with the development of the army. In the Serbian Armed Forces, September 20 is celebrated as the Day of the Telecommunication Service.

      Information Technology Service

      As a result of a need to improve military administration and administrative service in general, the Sixth Department of the General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army was established on February 21, 1963. The Data Processing Center was subordinate to the Sixth Department. That date, February 21, is celebrated in the Serbian Armed Forces as the Day of the Information Technology Service.

      The Sixth Department (in charge of administration) worked out the system of administrative business-doing, organized and kept records and statistics in the Yugoslav People’s Army, and it managed the administrative service professionally.

      The first computer UNIVAC-1004 was procured and installed in 1964 and the electronic computer ICL 4-50 was procured in 1968.

      The Information and Administration Department and the Data Processing Center were established on June 23, 1975. In 1983, the administrative service changed its name into the information service, which is divided into two branches: the information branch and general administration branch.

      Air Surveillance and Warning Service

      The Air Surveillance and Warning Service (ASW) has the mission to provide uninterrupted surveillance over the entire airspace above the Republic of Serbia and access to its airspace, to detect, identify and survey all aircraft in the airspace reliably and on timely basis, to provide radar support to the Air Force and Air Defence units and to inform the SAF units and commands, as well as citizens, about the current situation in the airspace.

      The ASW units are equipped with radars, height-finding radars and automatic devices.

      It is organized in the Air Surveillance, Warning and Control (ASWC) platoons, companies, battalions and the brigade.

      The history of the ASW began on June 18, 1915 when, based on the decision of the minister of war, the signal stations were formed in the disposition area of the Drina Division, Timok Division and the Combined Division. The surveillance units were tasked with reporting the flight routes of the enemy and directing the Serbian Aviation on the enemy.

      Since then, when the airspace was surveyed by random means, until today, when airspace is surveyed by radars, the ASW has developed and improved alongside the air force, because of which it was originally established.

      The first ASW units were formed after the Second World War, and they were equipped with 1D radars coming from Western countries.

      The first modern ASWC units were formed in 1956, when they were organized in the ASWC regiments and battalions.

      By the end of the 1950s, the ASW units were equipped with the P-series radars (P-12, P-15, P-14, P-35) coming from Eastern countries.

      In 1970s and mid-1980s, the S- and TPS-series radars were imported.

      Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear Service

      The Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear (CBRN) Service is the general service in the Serbian Armed Forces which has specific equipment, organization, training and use. Its task is to provide nuclear, chemical and biological defence.

      The CBRN is an integral part of the defence system of the Republic of Serbia, being responsible for organizing and implementing specialists’ work within the CBRN defence, such as: establishing the efficient CBRN system planning and education of the NBC personnel at the national and regional level building cooperation with partner CBRN systems equipping units with NBC agents research and development of the CBRN items preparing and employing CBRN units for peacekeeping operations development and improvement of training and doctrine elaboration of new rules and directives scientific and publishing business, and development, organization and management within the CBRN service.

      The CBRN has the mission: to conduct CBRN control including reconnaissance, laboratory analyses and CBRN decontamination after an CBRN weapon has been used to train officers, NCOs, the SAF units, commands and institutions in preventing and addressing CBRN hazards to make plans and respond to situations hit by CBRN weapons in peacetime to implement the Chemical Weapons Convention and other international regulations, as well as to help civilian institutions and citizens in CBRN accidents, natural disasters and other accidents.

      The CBRN Service has a decisive role in addressing problems imposed by the use of CBRN weapons in wartime and in protecting the Armed Forces from NBC accidents in peacetime. It is qualified and equipped to successfully carry out tasks during warfare.

      The CBRN service is made up of the CNRN Training Centre being responsible for specialist training of the CBRN soldiers, training of the CBRN personnel inside and outside the Armed Forces at the national and regional level, and the CBRN battalion.

      To implement the above said objectives, equipping with modern items is of major importance, being: CBRN protection items, CBRN control and decontamination items, state-of-the-art items used in mobile laboratories, and the items used to detect toxic industrial chemicals and other hazardous materials, and to carry out the decontamination process.

      The first CBRN unit (the Barutana Battalion), a forerunner of the CBRN units in this area, was established at the Obilićevo Institute in 1932. The CBRN branch has constantly been developed, strengthened in terms of organization and personnel, and it has always managed, even at times of hardship, to fulfill its duties and tasks.

      Intelligence Service

      The Intelligence Service has a mission to continuously collect, process and use intelligence (information, estimates) related to the current situation and adversary intentions (threats), the area of the employment of forces and right timing in order to avoid surprises and respond on timely basis to the newly arisen situation.

      The main tasks of the Intelligence Service are: to build and maintain operational and functional capability of the intelligence to monitor indicators of the security threats to the Republic of Serbia and the Serbian Armed Forces and to prevent surprises to monitor activities of foreign countries, military and political alliances and their armed forces in the area of intelligence responsibility and the area of intelligence interest to make the intelligence preparation of a theatre of operations to update the integrated intelligence data base to support selection process of fixed targets and to estimate effects of fixed targets, to support force protection and to cooperate with other structures.

      The Intelligence Service of the Serbian Armed Forces is composed of intelligence bodies at all command levels, capacities to collect intelligence, information systems, intelligence data bases and users.

      The state-of-the-art equipment is used for achieving missions of the Intelligence, being: optoelectronic devices and means and systems with electronic effect.

      Immediately before the transition to the peacetime period, when the rest of the Staff of the Supreme Headquarters was to be converted into the General Staff of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, the Regulation on the Main General Staff and general staff vocation was issued on April 10, 1920. The Main General Staff used to have four divisions: the Operations, the Intelligence, the Transport and the Institute of History and Geography.

      Intelligence division performed the following tasks:

      • elaboration of the studies related to foreign countries and armies and collection of the related data
      • maintaining of relations with foreign military attaches and missions and
      • organization of work on suppression of enemy operations related to collection of data about our army and country.

      Geodetic Service

      The Geodetic Service of the Serbian Armed Forces is a multi-service department which has the aim to plan, organize and conduct land survey, to collect data about an area, to elaborate and publish geospatial materials, to apply the system of geodetic and topographic support to the Serbian Armed Forces and other defence-related entities in peacetime and wartime, and to perform other tasks from its area of competence.

      Within the elaboration and publishing of materials, the Geodetic Service has the missions to:

      • carry out research, scientific and development-oriented work in geodesy, geophysics, photogrammetry, remote detection, cartography, cartographic reproduction and other geodetic sciences
      • to provide geodetic service and land surveying
      • to make aerial photographs, to perform remote sensing and make photo-products
      • to make and publish plans and maps
      • to provide metrological support, standardization and nomenclature in geodesy and to form data bases and
      • to create information systems.

      The Geodetic Service of the Serbian Armed Forces is one of the oldest services in our army. It was founded on February 5, 1876 when an independent body of the General Staff was given jurisdiction over the tasks, which are even today known as the tasks of the geodetic service. After the WWII, the tasks falling within the geodetic service were carried out by the First (Operational) Department of the General Staff, and executive tasks were performed by the Military Geographic Institute.

      Meteorological and Navigation Service

      The Meteorological Service in the Serbian Armed Forces is responsible for observing, monitoring, processing and warning about meteorological and hydrological conditions, and for weather forecasting in order to make prerequisits for accomplishing tasks. Apart from that, it carries out the climate research of the area.

      The Navigation Service is tasked with collecting, processing and dissemination of information to commands and units on hydrographic and navigation conditions having an impact on preparation and accomplishment of a task.

      The data are collected for a certain period of time. The most important meteorological data are: direction, velocity and character of wind, temperature of air and soil, and cloud amount. The most important hydro-meteorological data are: water stage, flow rate and tendency of water stage. In the planning process, the impact of hydro-meteorological conditions on the course of operations and the conduct of operation are taken into consideration.

      The SAF commands and units use meteorological and navigation data delivered by the competent authorities of the Serbian Armed Forces and relevant institutions of the Republic of Serbia.

      The Meteorological Service developed alongside the military Air Force, and it began with poorly equipped stations and personnel trained in courses, while today it is a modernly equipped service with the personnel educated at military academies and universities.

      The first meteorological station for air force needs was founded in Belgrade on November 1, 1919. It was formed out of the French meteorological station brought from the Salonika front.

      The Air Force command at that time was interested in further development and modernization of the meteorological service, and on November 1, 1923 the Meteorological Section of the First Air Force Brigade was esatblished in Petrovaradin, which laid foundations for further development of the air force meteorological service.

      Before the outbreak of the WWII, the sections grew to meteorological platoons.

      In the WWII, the network of meteorological stations was destroyed, along with all meteorological institutions and all meteorological instruments and devices.

      Founding and development of a new meteorological service began in 1943 by forming the Meteorological Section as one of the bodies of the Supreme Headquarters of the People’s Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia. The first meteorological station was established at the beginning of 1944 in the island of Vis, for the needs of the Navy of the People’s Liberation Army and British Air Force, and at that time courses were organized for training the meteorological personnel.

      The new period in history of the meteorological service began in 1988, when military and civil air traffic meteorological service were integrated within the Federal Air Traffic Control Authority, thus becoming the competent authority for providing meteorological services to both civilian and military aircraft at all airports and above the entire territory of the Republic of Serbia.

      Legal Service

      The Legal Service is tasked with acting in administrative proceedings of first and second instance acting in administrative proceedings for making decisions according to proposals in order to apply extraordinary legal means preparation of statements of defence and representation in administrative disputes legal control, i.e. control of the rule of law in administrative matters evaluation of regularity of acts by means of which state of affairs in the professional service of the SAF members are regulated monitoring the field of normative documents referring to the Serbian Armed Forces and normative and legal affairs being in the line of duty of the Chief of the General Staff participation in elaboration of laws and by-laws preparation of opinions on draft laws, by-laws and other general acts from the point of view of the SAF commands, units and institutions direct cooperation on legal issues with the bodies of public authority of the Republic of Serbia acting according to letters filed by the Ombudsman acting according to letters asking for delivery of information of public importance participation in proceedings to discuss responsibility for inflicted damage providing direct cooperation and assistance to the Manpower and Personnel Service carrying out of military disciplinary investigations and disciplinary practice due to petty violations of military discipline filing and pleading for plaintiff’s bill (military disciplinary prosecutor) and trials for serious breach of military discipline (military disciplinary courts).

      Since its founding, the military Legal Service has changed its organization and role, but it has always adapted to the needs of the state and the army.

      When the Military Law regulating organization and proceedings before military courts was passed on October 31, 1839, in Europe there were only two other laws regulating the military criminal law. Pursuant to provisions of the Military Law, the courts at that time were organized as the courts of first instance at battalion commands and as courts of second instance, i.e. appellate courts at main military headquarters.

      The turning point in military jurisdiction is adoption of the first military judicial law in 1864, during the reign of the Prince Mihailo Obrenović, when the army and entire state administration were reformed to a great extent. This Law was drawn up according to the French military law, and the date when it was passed is celebrated as the Day of the Legal Service of the Serbian Armed Forces.

      In 1901, the Law on Organization of Military Courts brought some new issues, because court- martial was established which became active in war. Military courts of first instance were organized at the division level in the armed forces of the Kingdom of Serbia, and the military court of second instance, with the seat in Belgrade, had the name of the Great Military Court. The State military attorneys were present only at the courts of first instance and they had their own management.

      In 1955, the jurisdiction of military courts was extended to property and administrative disputes.

      The officers of the SAF Legal Service fulfill the duties of their area of competence in the SAF units and institutions that are subordinate to the General Staff, as well as to the organizational units of the Ministry of Defence.

      Music Service

      The Music Service is a specialist service which is tasked with cherishing and developing the art of music in the Ministry of Defence and the Serbian Armed Forces.

      The Music Service has the mission to:

      • to cherish and encourage musical creativity which reflects cultural tradition of the Serbian people
      • participate in celebrations of public, military and religious holidays, ceremonies to mark anniversaries of the Serbian liberation wars, state and military celebrations, and protocol activities at the state level and the level of the Ministry of Defence and the Serbian Armed Forces
      • to play musical works which contribute to straightening values and ethics of the members of the Ministry of Defence and the Serbian Armed Forces and to meet their cultural needs
      • to train and educate Service bands in the Ministry of Defence and the Serbian Armed Forces
      • to follow development of domestic and foreign musical works and to cooperate with orchestras and the institutions of culture in the country, and bands of foreign armies
      • to supply and maintain musical instruments and equipment required for the work of the Ensemble and Service bands.

      In 1831, the Representative Orchestra of the Guard, under the name Knjaževsko-serbska Band, was founded by a decision of the Prince Miloš Obrenović. The first chief of the orchestra was the bandmaster Josif Šlezinger who were succeeded by Stanislav Binički, Franc Klinar and others.

      At the beginning of 20th century, Stanislav Binički founded the Royal Guard orchestra. It was the only professional orchestra at that time in Serbia, but it was the source of all professional ensembles of today. The Royal Guard orchestra is a forerunner of the modern Service bands and the Representative orchestra of the Guard. During almost two centuries of its existence it participated in all major events of the modern Serbian state and it became world-known.

      Nowadays, Service bands participate in marking the most important state and military ceremonials, and the Army Music Service contributes with its performances to sustaining and cherishing culture and traditions.

      Chaplaincy Service

      The Chaplaincy Service is the method of organizing activities of traditional churches and religious communities in the military and it also includes conducting of religious services in the Serbian Armed Forces.

      The aim of the Chaplaincy Service is to make it possible for the members of the Serbian Armed |Forces to exercise their constitutional right to freedom to religion, which is only exercised at someone’s free will and based on religious affiliation, on the principle of voluntarism, but complying with the rules of the military service.

      The Chaplaincy Service is tasked with developing and strengthening spiritual and moral values of the SAF members, as well as with cherishing military virtues and patriotism, and forming of civil liability. The Chaplaincy Service has the mission to support development, building, maintaining and increasing operational capabilities of the Serbian Armed Forces while conducting all missions and tasks.

      The activities of the Chaplaincy Service include religious service and other religious activities being conducted at the barracks according to the law and autonomous regulations of the church, i.e. the religious community.

      The Chaplaincy Service is organized through the Chaplains’ Department and the Chaplains’ Group.

      Military chaplains and the chaplaincy service were introduced in 19th century for the first time and they were a part of our army until the first half of 20th century.

      Military chaplains and religious service in military units were guaranteed by two legal acts in the Principality of Serbia. The both legal acts were passed in 1839. The first was the Law on Organization of the Garrison Army (passed on 31st May) and the other was the Law on the Armed Forces (passed on 31st October).

      Chaplains in the units conducted religious service and they were examples of Christian virtues. The status of the armed forces and the chaplaincy service were specified by the Law on Organization of Standing Army (1860) and the Law on Organization of the National Army (1861), but the chaplaincy service is best described in the legal act - the Organization of the Entire Army, adopted on 24 February, 1876 - on the eve of the war with the Ottoman Empire. Military chaplains were assigned to the Supreme Command, division and brigade commands. It was laid down by law that the Supreme Command should have a military bishop, who was in charge of all chaplains.

      Military chaplains used to have the status of government employees having identical entitlements as officers. A special attention was paid to studying religion, which was obligatory for all soldiers and cadets. During conflicts, a military chaplain was appointed by the chief of General Staff. The duties of the military chaplain were to take care that all chaplains were at the right positions to pray, to support soldiers, thus strengthening the combat readiness and to deliver Holy Communion to dying soldiers.

      The Serbian Armed Forces used to have a certain number of military imams and military rabbis who fulfilled their duties on an equal footing with orthodox priests. At the initiative launched by Serbian archbishop Dimitrije, the catholic chaplains were introduced at the Salonika front for the first time in order to make it possible for Austrian and Hungarian prisoners of war to exercise their religious freedom.

      The same principle of organizing the chaplaincy service until 1918 was later used in the armed forces of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes and later in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, but having in mind multiethnic and multi-confessional society, all registered churches and religious communities were entitled to chaplains. The Chaplaincy Service was abolished after the Second World War.

      With the Law on the Serbian Armed Forces which came into effect on January 1 2011, all legal provisions were met to regulate this field. Based on this Law, on March 24, 2008 the Government of the Republic of Serbia laid down the issues related to religious freedom exercised by members of the Serbian Armed Forces by the Regulations on conducting religious service.

      The Law on the Serbian Armed Forces also regulates that special agreements on religious service should specify the interrelationship between the Ministry of Defence and churches, i.e. religious communities.

      The agreement signed between the Ministry of Defence and the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Serbian Orthodox Church was signed on June 28 2011, and agreements with other six traditional churches and religious communities (Roman Catholic Church in Serbia, Slovak Evangelical Church, Reformed Christian Church, Evangelical Christian Church, Jewish community and Islamic Community in Serbia) were signed on October 18, 2011. By signing the agreements, it was made possible for the Regulations on Religious Service in Serbian Armed Forces to be applied.

      With eight Orthodox chaplains, one Roman Catholic chaplain and one imam having entered the military service and having been appointed, the Chaplaincy Service was reintroduced in the Serbian Armed Forces on August 1, 2013.

      With Orthodox and Roman Catholic chapels having been consecrated and with the chapel for Muslims having been opened, all preconditions were met to conduct religious service and rites in commands and units of the Serbian Armed Forces.


      Serbia In Collapse

      The First World War was an unprecedented catastrophe that shaped our modern world. Erik Sass is covering the events of the war exactly 100 years after they happened. This is the 208th installment in the series.

      November 5, 1915: Serbia In Collapse

      With Serbia outnumbered by more than two to one by its German, Austro-Hungarian, and Bulgarian foes, there was never really any doubt about the outcome of the Central Powers’ offensive against the small Slavic kingdom in the autumn of 1915—and it wasn’t long in coming.

      Attacked on multiple fronts in the first half of October 1915, the Serbian armies were quickly forced to fall back towards central Serbia by overwhelming enemy firepower, as German and Habsburg heavy guns blasted Serbian trenches out of existence. Reeling backwards, the Serbs made desperate attempts to slow the onslaught at the Battles of the Morava and Ovche Pole, while a French relief force, marching north from the Greek port of Salonika, fought the Bulgarians at the Battle of Krivolak.

      By mid-November all three battles had turned against the Serbs and their allies. During the Battle of the Morava, named for the river valley where much of the fighting took place, the Bulgarian First Army broke through the Serbian lines at Pirot on October 24, and by November 9 the outnumbered Serbian Second Army was in retreat towards the southern province of Kosovo. Further south, in the Battle of Ovche Pole the Bulgarian Second Army overwhelmed Serbian defenses at Kumanovo, severing the vital rail link to Salonika and conquering the Vardar River valley by November 15. Simultaneously the Bulgarians held off the French force advancing from the south at Krivolak, ending any hope that the Allies might be able to send reinforcements to the outnumbered Serbs by November 21.

      Meanwhile the Austro-German Eleventh Army and Austro-Hungarian Third Army were advancing relentlessly from the north. A British observer, Gordon Gordon-Smith, described the tried-and-true method used by the Eleventh Army, which he was able to observe from the Serbian side in a battle near the town of Paraćin (top, German troops marching through Paraćin):

      Shells fell by hundreds on every square mile of the Serbian positions. After two hours or so of this indiscriminate bombardment we began to see parties of infantry, twenty to fifty strong, pushing forward. When they came within rifle-range they began to deploy and opened fire on the Serbian positions. As soon as the Serbian infantry began to reply, a field telephone, with which each of the German advance parties was armed, ’phoned back the exact position of the trenches to the artillery in the rear. An instant later an avalanche of shrapnel and shell was poured on the Serbian lines, while at the same time the heavier German guns opened a “tir de barrage” [covering fire] on the ground two miles in the Serbian rear to hinder the movement of retreat or prevent reinforcements being brought up.

      On October 19 the Serbian government abandoned the temporary capital at Niš for Prizren in the far southwest, near the Albanian border. By October 22 the Bulgarians had reached Uskub (today Skopje, Macedonia below, local men listen to a Serbian soldier before the evacuation of Skopje) then captured Kragujevac, in the heart of Serbia, on November 1. On November 5 Niš fell to the Central Powers—opening direct rail communications with the Ottoman Empire, one of the main goals of the campaign—followed by Kruševac the next day. Gordon-Smith, who was present at the evacuation of Kruševac, described the lurid scene as Serbian troops and civilians fled into the hills while the Serbian rearguard tried to hold off the enemy for a few more hours:

      From the eminence on which I stood the spectacle was terrifying. Krushevatz was blazing at half a dozen points, the whole sky was covered with a crimson glare, while below us the river, blood-red in the flames, could be followed to the horizon, where the flashes of Serbian guns delaying the German advance could be seen… Suddenly there was an explosion like an earthquake. An immense column of yellow flame shot heavenward, lighting up the whole country for miles round. The heavy girder bridge over the river had been dynamited.

      On November 7 the battered Serbian armies began retreating towards the famous “Field of Blackbirds” or Kosovo Polje—full of symbolic meaning as the scene of Serbia’s crushing defeat by the Ottoman Turks in 1389, and soon to witness yet another heroic martyrdom at the hands of the Central Powers (below, Serbian forces in retreat). The ragged Serbian armies would make their last stand at Kosovo Polje from November 20-25, 1915.

      Once again, Gordon-Smith was present as the Serbs retreated southwest from Kruševac down the Rasina River Valley towards Kosovo:

      The panorama which met our eyes was grandiose in the extreme. To right and left of us snow-capped mountains towered to the clouds. Through the centre of the valley they formed wound a narrow road skirting a rushing stream, the Rasina. As far as the eye could reach, both front and rear, was an endless line of marching regiments, infantry, cavalry and artillery… For fifty kilometres in front of us and ten behind us rolled this human flood, 130,000 men, 20,000 horses and 80,000 oxen, with here and there a pontoon train, a field telegraph section or a battery of immense howitzers drawn by teams of twenty-four oxen. But behind us we could always hear the inexorable thunder of the German guns.

      After a month of non-stop fighting and marching, the Serbian troops were understandably exhausted and demoralized. Gordon-Smith recalled the sad scene when the army pitched camp at night:

      Squatting down on their heels, the men stretched their numbed hands to the flickering blaze. Sometimes one would hear the plaintive strains from the violin of a gipsy soldier, or the low sounds of the native flute. The men seemed in these somber days to sleep but little. After tramping all day alongside their wagons they would remain seated around the bivouac fires, dozing or talking in low tones, till the advent of the cheerless dawn warned them to feed the oxen and prepare to resume their weary march.

      Things were about to become much worse. Even by the standards of the First World War Serbia’s fate was a humanitarian disaster, as hundreds of thousands of peasants streamed south to join the Serbian Army in the “Great Retreat”—a horrible journey over the snowy Albanian mountains in mid-winter, conducted without enough food or shelter, from November 1915 to January 1916 (below, peasant refugees).

      Already the weather was turning against the retreating Serbs—not to mention thousands of Habsburg prisoners of war who suffered the same privations as their captors (or worse). Josef Šrámek, a Czech prisoner of war, described the incredible conditions in his diary as his POW column made its way through Pristina, Kosovo, on October 28-30:

      We walk all day without stopping. Those who stay behind get beaten with a stick or gun butt or stabbed with bayonets. You mustn’t stop to have a sip of water as the guards keep on screaming “Četyry a četyry” [“march”]. The road is flooded. We walk in water that reaches up to our waists for almost 4 hours… Last night we slept in the rain again. Our guards raged—they hit, kicked, and robbed us.

      Hunger was already spreading in the Serbian ranks, and with the logic of war thousands of Habsburg prisoners of war would be the first to starve to death. On November 12 Šrámek wrote:

      Sad times—no bread or meals for 3 days, and yet we have to work. We are dying for food. It is raining the creek flooded the road, and the supplies can’t reach us. We boil corn and rose hips. I traded a little corn flour for a shirt and underwear. The Arnauts [ethnic Albanians] do not want Serb money. The boys trade flour for their last blankets… Today someone shouted at the narednik [officer]: “Give us bread or shoot us. We cannot live like this.” We’re hopeless.


      Let Slip the Dogs of War: Carillon’s Canines

      In 2016, Fort Ticonderoga invited guests to bring their leashed dogs onto our campus to enjoy the remarkable scenic beauty and historic significance of the grounds. In recent years, more and more animals have been finding their way back to Ticonderoga with the beginning of our own historic breeds program in 2015.

      Animals have formed a part of the Ticonderoga landscape from the beginning of its military occupation in the eighteenth century. Horses and oxen were used by the French military to haul timber and artillery. Captain Charles Osbone of the 44 th Regiment of Foot kept cattle at the fort during his tenure here in 1764, and hired the wife of a soldier to tend to them. William Delaplace, the Captain of the 26 th Regiment of Foot who commanded the fort when it was taken by Benedict Arnold and Ethan Allen in May of 1775, kept a considerable quantity of livestock around the fort. These included a horse, an ox, a heifer, six cows, and forty-four sheep. These animals were here for draught purposes, riding, milk, or meat, not as pets. But, what of man’s best friend? Dogs are known to have accompanied some officers and soldiers during the wars of the 18th century. During his service as a General in the Continental Service, the Englishman Charles Lee (a veteran of the July 8, 1758 Battle of Carillon as a Captain in the 44th Regiment of Foot) was known to have a pack of his dogs with him. Dogs had been kept and used by Native Americans in Canada for centuries. During the French and Indian War, French officers were actually provided with dogs for use in towing toboggans loaded with provisions in winter, although these were clearly more for work than companionship.

      Found in the ruins of Fort Ticonderoga, the dog’s owner was only recently identified as Lieutenant John de Birniere of the 44th Regiment of Foot, which garrisoned the fort from January of 1764 to June of 1765. The collar is pierced with a series of holes where leather would have been sewn over the rim. Lieutenant John de Birniere’s Dog Collar, c.1764-65(Collection of the Fort Ticonderoga Museum)

      There is, however, at least one dog that may not have been a working animal that can be documented at Fort Ticonderoga. Early in the 20th century, workers recovered fragments of a broken dog collar in the ruins of the fort. Made of brass, the collar has an iron loop that passed through a corresponding slot on the opposite side of the collar to close it against the animal’s throat. The collar bears an engraving indicating the dog’s owner, although the fragment does not include the entire name, which left the owner’s identity and affiliation in question for over a century. New research into the peacetime garrisons of Ticonderoga conducted in the winter of 2017 has finally revealed his identity. The engraving “DzLieut Jno De Bdz” is all that is legible on the collar, but when searched against the British Army Lists held in Ticonderoga’s archives a match was found in Lieutenant John de Birniere. De Birniere served in the 44th Regiment of Foot, receiving his Lieutenant’s commission on August 9, 1760. The collar must have been lost at the fort between January of 1764 and June of 1765. During that time, a detachment of the 44 th Regiment garrisoned Ticonderoga as well as Fort William Augustus and Oswegatchie on the Saint Lawrence River in Northern New York and Crown Point. We do not know how Lieutenant de Birniere’s dog lost its collar, nor what kind of breed it was, although given the size of the collar, it was likely a rather large dog. Its presence suggests that at least in time of peace, some officers may have kept animals with them for companionship as well as work.

      You can see Lieutenant de Birniere’s dog’s collar on display during the February 16, 2019 living history event in the Mars Education Center. Your dogs are welcome to enjoy the grounds with you, just remember that unlike the 18th century, they may not go inside the buildings within the fort.


      Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by YAN » 15 Jun 2009, 14:06

      Hi, I have compiled a list of artillery used by the Yugoslave army on the eve of the invasion in 1941, I dont know how acurate it is, and I cannot find any data on what numbers they had or what was actually used.

      37mmL/40 AT Gun (Skoda)
      37mmL/47 AT Gun (Skoda)
      70mm/37mm Inf/AT Gun (Skoda)
      65mmL/20 Mountain Gun (Schneider)
      75mmL/15 M.1915 Mountain Gun (Skoda)
      100mmL/24 M.1919 Mountain Gun (Skoda)
      75mmL/36 M.1897 Field Gun (Schneider)
      76mmL/. M.1905/28 Field Gun (Skoda. )
      100mmL/24 Field Howitzer (Skoda)
      105mmL/. M.1898/09 Field Howitzer (Skoda)
      105mmL/. M.1916 Field Howitzer (Skoda)
      105mmL/. M.1930 Field Gun (Skoda)
      120mmL/. M.1910/15 Field Howitzer (Skoda)
      150mmL/14 M.1914 Field Howitzer (Skoda)
      155mmL/. M.1917 Field Howitzer (Schneider)
      220mmL/. M.1928 Heavy Mortar (Skoda)
      305mmL/. M.1916 Heavy Mortars (Skoda)
      76mmL/. M.1928 AA Gun (Skoda)

      as you can see, they used a lot of Skoda hardware, can anyone help us with what quantity the Yugoslave army had of these guns, and fill in a few gaps, please.
      Thanks Yan.

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by The Edge » 15 Jun 2009, 15:05

      That is something for me - just be patient, got almost everything.

      Something for quick start:

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by YAN » 15 Jun 2009, 17:19

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by The Edge » 19 Jun 2009, 12:13

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by YAN » 19 Jun 2009, 15:31

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by Dili » 19 Jun 2009, 15:44

      Very Good The Edge. Now giving the guns to units

      I have 101,102 (typo for 111 and 112?) Heavy? Motorized Artillery Regiments with 105mm M.35 apparently attached to Savski Brigade/Detach, in this unit was also the Guards Artillery Regiment .
      I have 114 Heavy Artillery Regiment with 150mm guns probably M.28 (this Regiemnt was split between 3rd Territorial and Coastal Command
      I have in my list that Kotor fortress still might still had an unreferenced 2x280mm Mortars/Howitzers

      I never found to what unit belongs the 220mm mortars and the 305mm ones.


      And there is also need to research the Navy guns on land

      I suspect some of this were installed in Land specially the 9cm.

      4cm M.36 Bofors AA
      8,35 cm Skoda Mod 1922/24 AA
      9cm Skoda PL vz.12/20

      There is also this AH guns that might have remained in Coastal installations

      66 mm D45 & D50 Skoda TAG
      66 mm D45 & D50 Skoda BAG
      150mm D40 Skoda
      150mm D50 Skoda
      190mm D42 Skoda

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by YAN » 22 Jun 2009, 16:52

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by Dili » 22 Jun 2009, 22:44

      This is a speculative exercise:
      You do have 300 pieces of 80cm "EF" gun. This roughly gives guns for 12 divisions. Being the best you should probably put them in regular Infantry Divisions. Still misses regular 5 Divisions. I have Vrbas,Sava,Drava and Jadran Division with 75mm Guns but i didn't made a note so i can't refer a source to that, the Guards Division appears split by Savski and Banar Detachments , but i don't have the guns, but Savski Detachment had also 101 and 102 Artillery regiments with 105mm M.36.Likewise i have Reserve Triglav Division with only 8x 100mm Mt. Gun and 12x 75mm Mt.Guns, 71 Artillery Regiment at Corps Level w/ 155mm Howitzer and 114 Arty Regiment with 150mm.


      A good chance to get some hint for Gun numbers is to find a list with numbers of German captures. Below is a comparable part list of Italian captures, they only moved at coast some guns might even have come from German captures:

      Only Fixed or very low mobility Guns in Bunkers and emplacements(some numbers seem exagerated for positional guns , the 156 cal of Skoda might be an error)

      37/20 M 16 cann. da pos. Putezux Francia, Grecia e Jugoslavia
      37/44 M 37 cann. da pos. Skoda 10 Jugoslavia
      65/18 M 06 cann. da pos. Schneider 82 Jugoslavia, Grecia
      75/17 M 19 e M 28 obice da pos. Schneider 179 Jugoslavia
      105/35 M 29 cann. da pos. Jugoslavia
      105/ ? M 38 cann. da pos. Jugoslavia
      150/35 cann. da pos. Rheinmetall 4 Jugoslavia
      156/47 M 16 cann. da pos. Skoda Jugoslavia
      190/40 M 03 e M 06 cann. da pos. Skoda Jugoslavia

      CC= Contra Carro = anti tank
      CA= Contra aereo = AA Gun
      Obice = Howitzer

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by The Edge » 23 Jun 2009, 09:48

      I have some info regarding Yugoslav Fortress Artillery. To start with, Military Encyclopedia from 1970s claims (about) 500 fortress guns, all of them of „old“ (even obsolete - Encyclopedia puts all guns produced before 1918 into this category). That means whole Yugoslav fortress artillery were ex-Austro-Hungarian guns, with no new guns obtained 1919-1941 (all new guns bought for Navy went on ships). Regarding the AA artillery, it is quoted separately, but the numbers given fit to Army inventory (maybe some „old“ ones served with naval fortress installations).

      One Yugoslav source (1935) mentions following “Fortress Artillery” types:
      - 240mm coastal mortar M.98,
      - 210 mm coastal mortar M.98,
      - 156mm coastal gun L/50,
      - 150mm coastal gun L/40,
      - 120mm ship gun L/35,
      - 105mm ship gun L/45,
      - 104mm fortress howitzer M.16,
      - 75mm field gun M.14,
      - 70mm marine gun M.18.
      Data for named guns are given in table bellow (Cyrilic letters). Compare with the German data of captured “Marine” guns (much longer list).
      A-H fortress artillery at: http://www.weltkriege.at/ (go for “AUSRÜSTUNG/BEWAFFNUNG” then “Geschütze”).

      Yugoslav Navy also used a lot of other light A-H naval guns in 47mm, 6-cm (57mm), 7-cm (66mm) in coastal installations, with some 7cm (66mm) guns probably adapted for AA role too. Only specific AA guns mentioned for Navy were “9cm L/45s” – number given is just one battery, regarding the 1928 deal with Czechoslovakia, along the modification of M.15 long guns (from 104 to 105mm) - so I suppose that old 9-cm M.12 guns were brought to M.12/20 standard.

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by nuyt » 23 Jun 2009, 09:58

      Re: Yugoslave artillery 1941

      Post by The Edge » 23 Jun 2009, 10:47

      First of all, delete M.04 Krupp guns (these were few ex-Turkish guns, captured in 1912 war). Schneider M.04 guns were ex-Bulgarian, also few in number. Both types had "reserve" status, using non-standard ammo. Slightly better in numbers, but also with non-standard ammo, were ex-Serbian guns M.07 & M.07A guns. These three types of field guns count for about 100+ guns taken together.

      Yugoslav infantry divisions (28 of them in 1941 General Mobilization, plus 3 cavalry divisions), had 4 battalion strong artillery regimens. Usually it contained one battalion of mountain guns, two battalions of field guns and one battalion of 100mm light howitzers. Variations existed, however. Divisions type "B" ("B" for "Brdska", i.e. Mountain-type division) had higher persentage of mountain guns, plus mountain types of 100mm howitzers. Some divisions, destined for use in plains, had two field gun battalions plus two 100mm howitzer batallions in their artillery regiments.

      Premium field gun was "80mm" M.28 (300 pieces) secondary ones were 75mm M.12 & "80mm" M.05/12 (along few M.17s of the same caliber - Yugoslav "80mm" were ex-Austrian "8-cm", actually 76.5mm caliber). Numbers were 200+ for both models - i.e. about 500 pieces taken together. (Btw, main cavalry model was Schneider M.12 - naturally).
      Premium light howitzers were 100mm M.28 (L/25, 72 pieces) and M.14/19 (L/24, 150 pieces). Both used the same ammo, with M.28 main advantage was longer range (one powder load more in common case), plus it could be broken into 3 loads for mountain transport - that's why Germans sometime refer them as "10-cm GbH 317/2(j)". Secondary models were WWI veterans - 100mm M.14 howitzers (L/19.3, awaiting modernization into M.14/19 standard) and 100mm M.16 (L/20, mountain type) howitzers. (All 100mm howitzers were Skoda manufacture) Small number of 120mm Schneiders were in reserve.

      Yugoslav Armies (be aware - there are no "corps" in 1941 Yugo Army!) each had one artillery regiment of "heavy" (actually medium) artillery. All guns were WWI models, horse- or (more common) ox-driven. Used were 105mm long guns (M.13 Schnneider and M.15/26 Skodas), 150mm Skoda M.14 & M.14/16 (real caliber 149mm) and 155mm Schneider heavy howitzers.

      Elite artillery were motorized heavy artillery regiments under Suprime HQ. They used modern medium artillery (105mm & 150mm M.36 Skodas) plus the only real Yugoslav heavy artillery (150mm long guns, 220mm & 305mm heavy mortars).


      Development [ edit | edit source ]

      Serbian Prof. Obrad Vucurović, mechanical engineer at the Military Technical Institute Belgrade was project manager and chief engineer of development of the M-63 Plamen and all other Yugoslavia MLRS until breakdown of country when he continued to develop for Serbia M96 Orkan 2. His knowledge and previous development has influenced new MLRS systems developed in Serbia in last couple of years including new 150 km long range MLRS witch is in project phase of development. His work is widely acknowledged and many of his unique developed features could be found on MLRS around world. Ώ]

      MRL M-63 Plamen main purpose is support of front-line units, with strong and sudden attacks on enemy forces. It can be also used against enemy structures such as encampments, airfields, industrial facilities, command centers, communication centers, storehouses, etc.

      The M-63 Plamen consists of 32 Ø128mm tubes, which can fire original Plamen-A and Plamen B rockets with a range of 8,600m. The effect of each rocket on the target is equivalent to the effect of a 105mm artillery shell. All 32 rockets can be fired in either 6.4, 12.5 or 19.2 seconds. The launcher is mounted on a single axle trailer which can be towed by vehicles with a 800mm high tow hitch. The towing vehicle carries reserve rockets, so the battle complement is 64 missiles.

      The M-63 Plamen was widely used during the Yugoslav Wars. It has also been sighted in the Syrian Civil War, used by rebel fighters under the Free Syrian Army. ΐ]


      Ammunition

      One of the most important role of logistics is the supply of munitions as a primary type of artillery consumable, their storage and the provision of fuses, detonators and warheads at the point where artillery troops will assemble the charge, projectile, bomb or shell.

      A round of artillery ammunition comprises four components:

      Fuzes

      The normal artillery spelling is "fuze". Fuzes are the devices that trigger explosion of the artillery ammunition charge. Broadly there are four main types:

      • impact (including graze and delay)
      • mechanical time including airburst
      • proximity sensor including airburst
      • electronic time including airburst

      Most artillery fuzes are nose fuzes. However, base fuzes have been used with armour piercing shells and for squash head (HESH or HEP) anti-tank shells. At least one nuclear shell and its non-nuclear spotting version also used a multi-deck mechanical time fuze fitted into its base.

      Impact fuzes were, and in some armies remain, the standard fuze for HE. Their default action is normally 'superquick', some have had a 'graze' action which allows them to penetrate light cover and others have 'delay'. Delay fuzes allow the shell to penetrate the ground before exploding. Armor- or concrete-piercing fuzes are specially hardened. During World War I and later, ricochet fire with delay or graze fuzed HE shells, fired with a flat angle of descent, was used to achieve airburst.

      HE shells can be fitted with other fuzes. Airburst fuzes usually have a combined airburst and impact function. However, until the introduction of proximity fuzes, the airburst function was mostly used with cargo munitions—for example shrapnel, illumination, and smoke. The larger calibers of anti-aircraft artillery are almost always used airburst. Airburst fuzes have to have the fuze length (running time) set on them. This is done just before firing using either a wrench or a fuze setter pre-set to the required fuze length.

      Early airburst fuzes used igniferous timers which lasted into the second half of the 20th Century. Mechanical time fuzes appeared in the early part of the century. These required a means of powering them. The Thiel mechanism used a spring and escapement (i.e. 'clockwork'), Junghans used centrifugal force and gears, and Dixi used centrifugal force and balls. From about 1980, electronic time fuzes started replacing mechanical ones for use with cargo munitions.

      Proximity fuzes have been of two types: photo-electric or radar. The former was not very successful and seems only to have been used with British anti-aircraft artillery 'unrotated projectiles' (rockets) in World War II. Radar proximity fuzes were a big improvement over the mechanical (time) fuzes which they replaced. Mechanical time fuzes required an accurate calculation of their running time, which was affected by non-standard conditions. With HE (requiring a burst 20 to 30 feet (9.1 m) above the ground), if this was very slightly wrong the rounds would either hit the ground or burst too high. Accurate running time was less important with cargo munitions that burst much higher.

      The first radar proximity fuzes (codenamed 'VT') were initially used against aircraft in World War II. Their ground use was delayed for fear of the enemy recovering 'blinds' (artillery shells which failed to detonate) and copying the fuze. The first proximity fuzes were designed to detonate about 30 feet (9.1 m) above the ground. These air-bursts are much more lethal against personnel than ground bursts because they deliver a greater proportion of useful fragments and deliver them into terrain where a prone soldier would be protected from ground bursts.

      However, proximity fuzes can suffer premature detonation because of the moisture in heavy rain clouds. This led to 'controlled variable time' (CVT) after World War II. These fuzes have a mechanical timer that switched on the radar about 5 seconds before expected impact, they also detonated on impact.

      The proximity fuze emerged on the battlefields of Europe in late December 1944. They have become known as the U.S. Artillery's "Christmas present", and were much appreciated when they arrived during the Battle of the Bulge. They were also used to great effect in anti-aircraft projectiles in the Pacific against kamikaze as well as in Britain against V-1 flying bombs. [ 17 ]

      Electronic multi-function fuzes started to appear around 1980. Using solid-state electronics they were relatively cheap and reliable, and became the standard fitted fuze in operational ammunition stocks in some western armies. The early versions were often limited to proximity airburst, albeit with height of burst options, and impact. Some offered a go/no-go functional test through the fuze setter.

      Later versions introduced induction fuze setting and testing instead of physically placing a fuze setter on the fuze. The latest, such as Junghan's DM84U provide options giving, superquick, delay, a choice of proximity heights of burst, time and a choice of foliage penetration depths.

      A new type of artillery fuze will appear soon. In addition to other functions these offer some course correction capability, not full precision but sufficient to significantly reduce the dispersion of the shells on the ground.

      Projectiles

      The projectile is the munition or "bullet" fired downrange. This may or may not be an explosive device. Traditionally, projectiles have been classified as "shot" or "shell", the former being solid and the latter having some form of "payload".

      Shells can also be divided into three configurations: bursting, base ejection or nose ejection. The latter is sometimes called the shrapnel configuration. The most modern is base ejection, which was introduced in World War I. Both base and nose ejection are almost always used with airburst fuzes. Bursting shells use various types of fuze depending on the nature of the payload and the tactical need at the time.

      • Bursting: high-explosive, white phosphorus ("Willie Pete" or "Wilson Picket") [citation needed] , coloured marker, chemical, nuclear devices high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) and canister may be considered special types of bursting shell.
      • Base Ejection: dual purpose improved conventional munitions (DPICM)-bomblet, scatterable mines, illuminating, coloured flare, smoke, incendiary, propaganda, chaff [ 18 ] (foil to jam radars: originally known as "window") [ 19 ] and modern exotics such as electronic payloads and sensor-fuzed munitions.
      • Nose Ejection: shrapnel, flechette, star, incendiary.

      Projectile stabilization

      • Rifled Traditionally, artillery projectiles have been spin-stabilised, meaning that they spin in flight so that gyroscopic forces prevent them from tumbling. Spin is induced by gun barrels having rifling which engages a soft metal band around the projectile, called a "driving band" (UK) or "rotating band" (U.S.). The driving band is usually made of copper, but synthetic materials have also been used.
      • Smoothbore/Fin-Stabilized In modern artillery smoothbore tubes have been used mostly by mortars. These projectiles use fins in the airflow at their rear to maintain correct orientation. The primary benefit over rifled barrels is reduced barrel wear and longer ranges that can be achieved (due to the reduced loss of energy to friction and gas escaping around the projectile via the rifling).
      • Rifled/Fin-Stabilized A combination of the above can be used, where the barrel is rifled, but the projectile also has deployable fins for stabilization, [ 20 ] guidance [ 21 ] or gliding. [ 22 ]

      Propellant

      Most forms of artillery require a propellant to propel the projectile at the target. Propellant is always a low explosive, this means it deflagrates instead of detonating, as with high explosives. The shell is accelerated to a high velocity in a very short time by the rapid generation of gas from the burning propellant. This high pressure is achieved by burning the propellant in a contained area, either the chamber of a gun barrel or the combustion chamber of a rocket motor.

      Until the late 19th century the only available propellant was black powder. Black powder had many disadvantages as a propellant it has relatively low power, requiring large amounts of powder to fire projectiles, and created thick clouds of white smoke that would obscure the targets, betray the positions of guns and make aiming impossible. In 1846 nitrocellulose (also known as guncotton) was discovered, and the high explosive nitroglycerin was discovered at much the same time. Nitrocellulose was significantly more powerful than black powder, and was smokeless. Early guncotton was unstable however, and burned very fast and hot, leading to greatly increased barrel wear. Widespread introduction of smokeless powder would wait until the advent of the double-base powders, which combine nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin to produce powerful, smokeless, stable propellant.

      Many other formulations were developed in the following decades, generally trying to find the optimum characteristics of a good artillery propellant low temperature, high energy, non corrosive, highly stable, cheap, and easy to manufacture in large quantities. Broadly, modern gun propellants are divided into three classes: single-base propellants which are mainly or entirely nitrocellulose based, double-base propellants composed of a combination of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin, and triple base composed of a combination of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin and Nitroguanidine.

      Artillery shells fired from a barrel can be assisted to greater range in three ways:

      • rocket assisted projectiles (RAP) enhance and sustain the projectile's velocity by providing additional 'push' from a small rocket motor that is part of the projectile's base. uses a small pyrotechnic charge at the base of the projectile to introduce sufficient combustion products into the low-pressure region behind the base of the projectile responsible for a large proportion of the drag.
      • ramjet assisted, similar to rocket assisted but using a ramjet instead of a rocket motor it is anticipated that a ramjet-assisted 120-mm mortar shell could reach a range of 22 mi (35 km). [ 23 ]

      Propelling charges for tube artillery can be provided in one of two ways: either as cartridge bags or in metal cartridge cases. Generally anti-aircraft artillery and smaller caliber (up to 6" or 152.4 mm) guns use metal cartridge cases that include the round and propellant, similar to a modern rifle cartridge. This simplifies loading and is necessary for very high rates of fire. Bagged propellant allows the amount of powder to be raised or lowered depending on the range to the target. it also makes handling of larger shells easier. Each requires a totally different type of breech to the other. A metal case holds an integral primer to initiate the propellant and provides the gas seal to prevent the gases leaking out of the breech, this is called obturation. With bagged charges the breech itself provides obturation and holds the primer. In either case the primer is usually percussion but electrical is also used and laser ignition is emerging. Modern 155 mm guns have a primer magazine fitted to their breech.

      Artillery ammunition has four classifications according to use:

      • Service: ammunition used in live fire training or for wartime use in a combat zone. Also known as "warshot" ammunition.
      • Practice: Ammunition with a non- or minimally-explosive projectile that mimics the characteristics (range, accuracy) of live rounds for use under training conditions. Practice artillery ammunition often utilizes a colored-smoke-generating bursting charge for marking purposes in place of the normal high explosive charge.
      • Dummy: Ammunition with an inert warhead, inert primer, and no propellant used for training or display.
      • Blank: Ammunition with live primer, greatly reduced propellant charge (typically black powder) and no projectile used for training, demonstration or ceremonial use.

      Serbian Military History

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Guest Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:39 pm

      We Serbs did something abit different which reminds alot of what you just said. Hope you find it amusing.

      Oplenac is church where members of your Karadjordjevic Royal family members are being buried. In that church there is one huge chandelier in shape of crown put upside down it has 9m in diameter and weights 1500kg, its symbol of our defeat in 1389. aganist Turks, however other symbolism is fact that it was made from broze taken out of our enemy guns during 1912-1918. wars. Symbolism of our rise.

      Our military graveyard in Greece, Thessaloniki named Zejtinlik also has similar item in its chapel, just made out of shell casings.

      But i like your idea, we have quite a few parts of F117A and F16 left around for it Even Predator

      Re: Serbian Military History

      KiloGolf Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:18 am

      Interesting story and photos on Georgios Michailovits, the last Serbian soldier and guard of the Serbian sector of the Allied Tomb in Thessaloniki. His father was married to a Greek woman and he is also married to a Greek woman. "I will stay till I close my eyes, because if I leave it will be treason" he said.

      Read here: http://www.vice.com/gr/read/teleutaios-servos-stratiotis

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Guest Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:56 pm

      Where The Yellow Lemon Blooms documentary movie about Serbian army retreat though Albania during WW1.

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Werewolf Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:54 pm

      Militarov wrote:

      Where The Yellow Lemon Blooms documentary movie about Serbian army retreat though Albania during WW1.

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Guest Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:54 am

      Militarov wrote:

      Where The Yellow Lemon Blooms documentary movie about Serbian army retreat though Albania during WW1.

      Ways of operation havent changed much compared to Snaiders 75mm M7 p.D.M. that we operated back then tho. Everuting manual, minus horses for towing.

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:54 pm

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Guest Sat Mar 05, 2016 2:20 am

      Interesting story and photos on Georgios Michailovits, the last Serbian soldier and guard of the Serbian sector of the Allied Tomb in Thessaloniki. His father was married to a Greek woman and he is also married to a Greek woman. "I will stay till I close my eyes, because if I leave it will be treason" he said.

      Read here: http://www.vice.com/gr/read/teleutaios-servos-stratiotis

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Odin of Ossetia Sun May 08, 2016 12:07 am

      SturmGuard wrote: Militarov,

      what can be said of Montenegrins? You have same people doing ultranationalist Serb thing in the '90s (including the leader), switching overnight to anti-Serb hysteria and confrontationalism? The worst thing is the historical nonsense they come up with, including their take on regional history, and their newly-fashioned Montenegrin language, whose grammar was written by a Croat and a Bosniak/Muslim, and "is based on old Podgorica Muslim folk speech" :DDD

      On the topic of WW2, I understand what you are writing about, I am fully aware of the statistics. However, as the German Army retreated, some part of the Volksdeutscher population went with them. Generally speaking, those that thought they had nothing to fear, chose to stay. It was to no avail, their properties were confiscated, they were "encouraged" to leave, executed, interred in camps and used for forced labour in various infrastructure projects.

      The same, actually even worse, can be said for the Italians. After the surrender of Italy, there were initially more Italians in Partisans than there were Bosniaks/Muslims. Yet, their fate was horrible, even though they were usually singled out in comparison to displays of savagery of "locals". In both cases, a miniscule fraction of both populations remained. Their homes and properties were filled up with various people. I recommend you to investigate the demographic engineering the Yugocommunists did in Dalmatia, Istria, Vojvodina and Kosovo, some eye-opening information there.

      The general characteristic was that there were no trials or investigations done, no justice was even attempted. The worst scum, murderers and criminals from "brotherly" nations were pardoned, accepted into the new order or left to live their lives, while entire historic populations were ethnically cleansed, and masses of POWs and civilians were summarily executed. Not to mention the persecution and reprisals of intellectuals, bourgeoise, White emigrees, royalists etc. If I remember correctly, around 10-15% of those killed in former Yugoslavia during WW2, were killed by Germans and Italians. The rest - by "brothers". The people who initially tried to resist foreign invaders and were taken to concentration camps (the Royal Yugoslav Army personnel - 200 000 of them) and those that chose to continue the resistance were percevied as enemies, as was the Kingdom, which is why Yugocommunists and Ustashe cooperated prior to war, and Yugocommunists viewed the aggresion as an excellent opportunity for an attempt at power usurpation, banking on the suffering of common people, which they exploited for their agenda.
      My family had partisans, but they immediately fell out of party favour. Interestingly, one grandpa due to "misunderstandings" concerning his church wedding (he was no devout Christian, just a traditionalist), which probably saved his life because he was supposed to go to USSR for military education. You know what happened to those who returned from USSR before Yugocommunists turned to the West.

      On the topic of Šešelj, I have heard some very convincing arguments about his UDBA-backed role of the Trojan horse to Serbian right/nationalist democratic politics.

      Something very similar to the now apparent role of both Dveri and the new DSS under Rašković. What else can be said about the party being supported by none other than Jasmina Vujić (I was aware of her background, positions and role due to my profession)? Just Google her, everyone. Or those ridiculous new totally-pro-Russian minor parties that fracture the vote?

      You are in deep shit, with no hope in sight. I don't know what is worse:
      - 50% of people voted for a coalition containing Rasim (for 16 years in all governments), Vuk Drašković, Babić, Vujin and which openly advocates euroatlantic integration (those same who demonised, dismantled and bombed you) AND good relations with Russia (yeah, something tells me that is mutually exclusive)

      - openly separatist and hostile entities are allowed in parliament (SDA, Ugljanin, Albanians, Vojvodina fifth-column)

      - a coalition hosting Latinka fuckin' Perović (I really hate that breed of people) of all people, managed to get into parliament

      At which point will the people wake up? I mean, there is absolutely no problem in identifying the underlying causes and culprits for the historic downfall of Serbia, the year can be precisely dated to either 1945, or even 1919. How many times does it take for people to finally get a hold of reality?
      The NATO agreement signed recently, which continues nicely on the previous one signed by Vuk Drašković while he was MFA, as well as the Bruxelles agreements, should amount to a treason. The economy is not doing well, neither are average wages and pensions.

      I hope that I managed to convey my thoughts and opinions to you well these are just observations from a neighbour. Don't want to come off as an arrogant and/or condescending individual lecturing you on the subject of your country, just genuinely interested in your take on the matter.

      Your claims are based on what?

      You are comparing the Royal Yugoslav Army, which offered minimal resistance to the Germans, with the heroic Yugoslav Partisans?

      There is not even a real comparison between these two!

      If they were all pardoned then what is the whining about Bleiburg about?

      That the Germans and Italians used proxies makes these two innocent?

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Guest Sun May 08, 2016 12:41 am

      SturmGuard wrote: Militarov,

      what can be said of Montenegrins? You have same people doing ultranationalist Serb thing in the '90s (including the leader), switching overnight to anti-Serb hysteria and confrontationalism? The worst thing is the historical nonsense they come up with, including their take on regional history, and their newly-fashioned Montenegrin language, whose grammar was written by a Croat and a Bosniak/Muslim, and "is based on old Podgorica Muslim folk speech" :DDD

      On the topic of WW2, I understand what you are writing about, I am fully aware of the statistics. However, as the German Army retreated, some part of the Volksdeutscher population went with them. Generally speaking, those that thought they had nothing to fear, chose to stay. It was to no avail, their properties were confiscated, they were "encouraged" to leave, executed, interred in camps and used for forced labour in various infrastructure projects.

      The same, actually even worse, can be said for the Italians. After the surrender of Italy, there were initially more Italians in Partisans than there were Bosniaks/Muslims. Yet, their fate was horrible, even though they were usually singled out in comparison to displays of savagery of "locals". In both cases, a miniscule fraction of both populations remained. Their homes and properties were filled up with various people. I recommend you to investigate the demographic engineering the Yugocommunists did in Dalmatia, Istria, Vojvodina and Kosovo, some eye-opening information there.

      The general characteristic was that there were no trials or investigations done, no justice was even attempted. The worst scum, murderers and criminals from "brotherly" nations were pardoned, accepted into the new order or left to live their lives, while entire historic populations were ethnically cleansed, and masses of POWs and civilians were summarily executed. Not to mention the persecution and reprisals of intellectuals, bourgeoise, White emigrees, royalists etc. If I remember correctly, around 10-15% of those killed in former Yugoslavia during WW2, were killed by Germans and Italians. The rest - by "brothers". The people who initially tried to resist foreign invaders and were taken to concentration camps (the Royal Yugoslav Army personnel - 200 000 of them) and those that chose to continue the resistance were percevied as enemies, as was the Kingdom, which is why Yugocommunists and Ustashe cooperated prior to war, and Yugocommunists viewed the aggresion as an excellent opportunity for an attempt at power usurpation, banking on the suffering of common people, which they exploited for their agenda.
      My family had partisans, but they immediately fell out of party favour. Interestingly, one grandpa due to "misunderstandings" concerning his church wedding (he was no devout Christian, just a traditionalist), which probably saved his life because he was supposed to go to USSR for military education. You know what happened to those who returned from USSR before Yugocommunists turned to the West.

      On the topic of Šešelj, I have heard some very convincing arguments about his UDBA-backed role of the Trojan horse to Serbian right/nationalist democratic politics.

      Something very similar to the now apparent role of both Dveri and the new DSS under Rašković. What else can be said about the party being supported by none other than Jasmina Vujić (I was aware of her background, positions and role due to my profession)? Just Google her, everyone. Or those ridiculous new totally-pro-Russian minor parties that fracture the vote?

      You are in deep shit, with no hope in sight. I don't know what is worse:
      - 50% of people voted for a coalition containing Rasim (for 16 years in all governments), Vuk Drašković, Babić, Vujin and which openly advocates euroatlantic integration (those same who demonised, dismantled and bombed you) AND good relations with Russia (yeah, something tells me that is mutually exclusive)

      - openly separatist and hostile entities are allowed in parliament (SDA, Ugljanin, Albanians, Vojvodina fifth-column)

      - a coalition hosting Latinka fuckin' Perović (I really hate that breed of people) of all people, managed to get into parliament

      At which point will the people wake up? I mean, there is absolutely no problem in identifying the underlying causes and culprits for the historic downfall of Serbia, the year can be precisely dated to either 1945, or even 1919. How many times does it take for people to finally get a hold of reality?
      The NATO agreement signed recently, which continues nicely on the previous one signed by Vuk Drašković while he was MFA, as well as the Bruxelles agreements, should amount to a treason. The economy is not doing well, neither are average wages and pensions.

      I hope that I managed to convey my thoughts and opinions to you well these are just observations from a neighbour. Don't want to come off as an arrogant and/or condescending individual lecturing you on the subject of your country, just genuinely interested in your take on the matter.

      Your claims are based on what?

      You are comparing the Royal Yugoslav Army, which offered minimal resistance to the Germans, with the heroic Yugoslav Partisans?

      There is not even a real comparison between these two!

      If they were all pardoned then what is the whining about Bleiburg about?

      That the Germans and Italians used proxies makes these two innocent?

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Odin of Ossetia Sun May 08, 2016 12:44 am

      SturmGuard wrote: Militarov,

      what can be said of Montenegrins? You have same people doing ultranationalist Serb thing in the '90s (including the leader), switching overnight to anti-Serb hysteria and confrontationalism? The worst thing is the historical nonsense they come up with, including their take on regional history, and their newly-fashioned Montenegrin language, whose grammar was written by a Croat and a Bosniak/Muslim, and "is based on old Podgorica Muslim folk speech" :DDD

      On the topic of WW2, I understand what you are writing about, I am fully aware of the statistics. However, as the German Army retreated, some part of the Volksdeutscher population went with them. Generally speaking, those that thought they had nothing to fear, chose to stay. It was to no avail, their properties were confiscated, they were "encouraged" to leave, executed, interred in camps and used for forced labour in various infrastructure projects.

      The same, actually even worse, can be said for the Italians. After the surrender of Italy, there were initially more Italians in Partisans than there were Bosniaks/Muslims. Yet, their fate was horrible, even though they were usually singled out in comparison to displays of savagery of "locals". In both cases, a miniscule fraction of both populations remained. Their homes and properties were filled up with various people. I recommend you to investigate the demographic engineering the Yugocommunists did in Dalmatia, Istria, Vojvodina and Kosovo, some eye-opening information there.

      The general characteristic was that there were no trials or investigations done, no justice was even attempted. The worst scum, murderers and criminals from "brotherly" nations were pardoned, accepted into the new order or left to live their lives, while entire historic populations were ethnically cleansed, and masses of POWs and civilians were summarily executed. Not to mention the persecution and reprisals of intellectuals, bourgeoise, White emigrees, royalists etc. If I remember correctly, around 10-15% of those killed in former Yugoslavia during WW2, were killed by Germans and Italians. The rest - by "brothers". The people who initially tried to resist foreign invaders and were taken to concentration camps (the Royal Yugoslav Army personnel - 200 000 of them) and those that chose to continue the resistance were percevied as enemies, as was the Kingdom, which is why Yugocommunists and Ustashe cooperated prior to war, and Yugocommunists viewed the aggresion as an excellent opportunity for an attempt at power usurpation, banking on the suffering of common people, which they exploited for their agenda.
      My family had partisans, but they immediately fell out of party favour. Interestingly, one grandpa due to "misunderstandings" concerning his church wedding (he was no devout Christian, just a traditionalist), which probably saved his life because he was supposed to go to USSR for military education. You know what happened to those who returned from USSR before Yugocommunists turned to the West.

      On the topic of Šešelj, I have heard some very convincing arguments about his UDBA-backed role of the Trojan horse to Serbian right/nationalist democratic politics.

      Something very similar to the now apparent role of both Dveri and the new DSS under Rašković. What else can be said about the party being supported by none other than Jasmina Vujić (I was aware of her background, positions and role due to my profession)? Just Google her, everyone. Or those ridiculous new totally-pro-Russian minor parties that fracture the vote?

      You are in deep shit, with no hope in sight. I don't know what is worse:
      - 50% of people voted for a coalition containing Rasim (for 16 years in all governments), Vuk Drašković, Babić, Vujin and which openly advocates euroatlantic integration (those same who demonised, dismantled and bombed you) AND good relations with Russia (yeah, something tells me that is mutually exclusive)

      - openly separatist and hostile entities are allowed in parliament (SDA, Ugljanin, Albanians, Vojvodina fifth-column)

      - a coalition hosting Latinka fuckin' Perović (I really hate that breed of people) of all people, managed to get into parliament

      At which point will the people wake up? I mean, there is absolutely no problem in identifying the underlying causes and culprits for the historic downfall of Serbia, the year can be precisely dated to either 1945, or even 1919. How many times does it take for people to finally get a hold of reality?
      The NATO agreement signed recently, which continues nicely on the previous one signed by Vuk Drašković while he was MFA, as well as the Bruxelles agreements, should amount to a treason. The economy is not doing well, neither are average wages and pensions.

      I hope that I managed to convey my thoughts and opinions to you well these are just observations from a neighbour. Don't want to come off as an arrogant and/or condescending individual lecturing you on the subject of your country, just genuinely interested in your take on the matter.

      Your claims are based on what?

      You are comparing the Royal Yugoslav Army, which offered minimal resistance to the Germans, with the heroic Yugoslav Partisans?

      There is not even a real comparison between these two!

      If they were all pardoned then what is the whining about Bleiburg about?

      That the Germans and Italians used proxies makes these two innocent?

      Only that they put up hardly any fight in Serbia itself.

      You cannot blame everything on the Croat separatists.

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Guest Sun May 08, 2016 12:54 am

      SturmGuard wrote: Militarov,

      what can be said of Montenegrins? You have same people doing ultranationalist Serb thing in the '90s (including the leader), switching overnight to anti-Serb hysteria and confrontationalism? The worst thing is the historical nonsense they come up with, including their take on regional history, and their newly-fashioned Montenegrin language, whose grammar was written by a Croat and a Bosniak/Muslim, and "is based on old Podgorica Muslim folk speech" :DDD

      On the topic of WW2, I understand what you are writing about, I am fully aware of the statistics. However, as the German Army retreated, some part of the Volksdeutscher population went with them. Generally speaking, those that thought they had nothing to fear, chose to stay. It was to no avail, their properties were confiscated, they were "encouraged" to leave, executed, interred in camps and used for forced labour in various infrastructure projects.

      The same, actually even worse, can be said for the Italians. After the surrender of Italy, there were initially more Italians in Partisans than there were Bosniaks/Muslims. Yet, their fate was horrible, even though they were usually singled out in comparison to displays of savagery of "locals". In both cases, a miniscule fraction of both populations remained. Their homes and properties were filled up with various people. I recommend you to investigate the demographic engineering the Yugocommunists did in Dalmatia, Istria, Vojvodina and Kosovo, some eye-opening information there.

      The general characteristic was that there were no trials or investigations done, no justice was even attempted. The worst scum, murderers and criminals from "brotherly" nations were pardoned, accepted into the new order or left to live their lives, while entire historic populations were ethnically cleansed, and masses of POWs and civilians were summarily executed. Not to mention the persecution and reprisals of intellectuals, bourgeoise, White emigrees, royalists etc. If I remember correctly, around 10-15% of those killed in former Yugoslavia during WW2, were killed by Germans and Italians. The rest - by "brothers". The people who initially tried to resist foreign invaders and were taken to concentration camps (the Royal Yugoslav Army personnel - 200 000 of them) and those that chose to continue the resistance were percevied as enemies, as was the Kingdom, which is why Yugocommunists and Ustashe cooperated prior to war, and Yugocommunists viewed the aggresion as an excellent opportunity for an attempt at power usurpation, banking on the suffering of common people, which they exploited for their agenda.
      My family had partisans, but they immediately fell out of party favour. Interestingly, one grandpa due to "misunderstandings" concerning his church wedding (he was no devout Christian, just a traditionalist), which probably saved his life because he was supposed to go to USSR for military education. You know what happened to those who returned from USSR before Yugocommunists turned to the West.

      On the topic of Šešelj, I have heard some very convincing arguments about his UDBA-backed role of the Trojan horse to Serbian right/nationalist democratic politics.

      Something very similar to the now apparent role of both Dveri and the new DSS under Rašković. What else can be said about the party being supported by none other than Jasmina Vujić (I was aware of her background, positions and role due to my profession)? Just Google her, everyone. Or those ridiculous new totally-pro-Russian minor parties that fracture the vote?

      You are in deep shit, with no hope in sight. I don't know what is worse:
      - 50% of people voted for a coalition containing Rasim (for 16 years in all governments), Vuk Drašković, Babić, Vujin and which openly advocates euroatlantic integration (those same who demonised, dismantled and bombed you) AND good relations with Russia (yeah, something tells me that is mutually exclusive)

      - openly separatist and hostile entities are allowed in parliament (SDA, Ugljanin, Albanians, Vojvodina fifth-column)

      - a coalition hosting Latinka fuckin' Perović (I really hate that breed of people) of all people, managed to get into parliament

      At which point will the people wake up? I mean, there is absolutely no problem in identifying the underlying causes and culprits for the historic downfall of Serbia, the year can be precisely dated to either 1945, or even 1919. How many times does it take for people to finally get a hold of reality?
      The NATO agreement signed recently, which continues nicely on the previous one signed by Vuk Drašković while he was MFA, as well as the Bruxelles agreements, should amount to a treason. The economy is not doing well, neither are average wages and pensions.

      I hope that I managed to convey my thoughts and opinions to you well these are just observations from a neighbour. Don't want to come off as an arrogant and/or condescending individual lecturing you on the subject of your country, just genuinely interested in your take on the matter.

      Your claims are based on what?

      You are comparing the Royal Yugoslav Army, which offered minimal resistance to the Germans, with the heroic Yugoslav Partisans?

      There is not even a real comparison between these two!

      If they were all pardoned then what is the whining about Bleiburg about?

      That the Germans and Italians used proxies makes these two innocent?

      Only that they put up hardly any fight in Serbia itself.

      You cannot blame everything on the Croat separatists.

      Commander of the defence in my city for an example was Slovenian, he told soldiers to lay weapons and go homes. He himself went to greet advancing Germans, one his unit rejected orders and shot two German soldiers on motorcycle.. only two German victims in very wide area.

      Yugoslav army had people of various nations serving everywhere across the country, you have some shiny examples of Croats fighting actually, but very few. On other hand you have many examples like one i stated above. And overall defence doctrine of Yugoslav army was wrong, rushing to borders to defend them. there is a book "Pad Kraljevine Jugoslavije", 3 volumes, explaining why and how it happened, would take ages to rephase it.

      Re: Serbian Military History

      Odin of Ossetia Sun May 08, 2016 1:08 am

      SturmGuard wrote: Militarov,

      what can be said of Montenegrins? You have same people doing ultranationalist Serb thing in the '90s (including the leader), switching overnight to anti-Serb hysteria and confrontationalism? The worst thing is the historical nonsense they come up with, including their take on regional history, and their newly-fashioned Montenegrin language, whose grammar was written by a Croat and a Bosniak/Muslim, and "is based on old Podgorica Muslim folk speech" :DDD

      On the topic of WW2, I understand what you are writing about, I am fully aware of the statistics. However, as the German Army retreated, some part of the Volksdeutscher population went with them. Generally speaking, those that thought they had nothing to fear, chose to stay. It was to no avail, their properties were confiscated, they were "encouraged" to leave, executed, interred in camps and used for forced labour in various infrastructure projects.

      The same, actually even worse, can be said for the Italians. After the surrender of Italy, there were initially more Italians in Partisans than there were Bosniaks/Muslims. Yet, their fate was horrible, even though they were usually singled out in comparison to displays of savagery of "locals". In both cases, a miniscule fraction of both populations remained. Their homes and properties were filled up with various people. I recommend you to investigate the demographic engineering the Yugocommunists did in Dalmatia, Istria, Vojvodina and Kosovo, some eye-opening information there.

      The general characteristic was that there were no trials or investigations done, no justice was even attempted. The worst scum, murderers and criminals from "brotherly" nations were pardoned, accepted into the new order or left to live their lives, while entire historic populations were ethnically cleansed, and masses of POWs and civilians were summarily executed. Not to mention the persecution and reprisals of intellectuals, bourgeoise, White emigrees, royalists etc. If I remember correctly, around 10-15% of those killed in former Yugoslavia during WW2, were killed by Germans and Italians. The rest - by "brothers". The people who initially tried to resist foreign invaders and were taken to concentration camps (the Royal Yugoslav Army personnel - 200 000 of them) and those that chose to continue the resistance were percevied as enemies, as was the Kingdom, which is why Yugocommunists and Ustashe cooperated prior to war, and Yugocommunists viewed the aggresion as an excellent opportunity for an attempt at power usurpation, banking on the suffering of common people, which they exploited for their agenda.
      My family had partisans, but they immediately fell out of party favour. Interestingly, one grandpa due to "misunderstandings" concerning his church wedding (he was no devout Christian, just a traditionalist), which probably saved his life because he was supposed to go to USSR for military education. You know what happened to those who returned from USSR before Yugocommunists turned to the West.

      On the topic of Šešelj, I have heard some very convincing arguments about his UDBA-backed role of the Trojan horse to Serbian right/nationalist democratic politics.

      Something very similar to the now apparent role of both Dveri and the new DSS under Rašković. What else can be said about the party being supported by none other than Jasmina Vujić (I was aware of her background, positions and role due to my profession)? Just Google her, everyone. Or those ridiculous new totally-pro-Russian minor parties that fracture the vote?

      You are in deep shit, with no hope in sight. I don't know what is worse:
      - 50% of people voted for a coalition containing Rasim (for 16 years in all governments), Vuk Drašković, Babić, Vujin and which openly advocates euroatlantic integration (those same who demonised, dismantled and bombed you) AND good relations with Russia (yeah, something tells me that is mutually exclusive)

      - openly separatist and hostile entities are allowed in parliament (SDA, Ugljanin, Albanians, Vojvodina fifth-column)

      - a coalition hosting Latinka fuckin' Perović (I really hate that breed of people) of all people, managed to get into parliament

      At which point will the people wake up? I mean, there is absolutely no problem in identifying the underlying causes and culprits for the historic downfall of Serbia, the year can be precisely dated to either 1945, or even 1919. How many times does it take for people to finally get a hold of reality?
      The NATO agreement signed recently, which continues nicely on the previous one signed by Vuk Drašković while he was MFA, as well as the Bruxelles agreements, should amount to a treason. The economy is not doing well, neither are average wages and pensions.

      I hope that I managed to convey my thoughts and opinions to you well these are just observations from a neighbour. Don't want to come off as an arrogant and/or condescending individual lecturing you on the subject of your country, just genuinely interested in your take on the matter.

      Your claims are based on what?

      You are comparing the Royal Yugoslav Army, which offered minimal resistance to the Germans, with the heroic Yugoslav Partisans?

      There is not even a real comparison between these two!

      If they were all pardoned then what is the whining about Bleiburg about?

      That the Germans and Italians used proxies makes these two innocent?

      Only that they put up hardly any fight in Serbia itself.

      You cannot blame everything on the Croat separatists.

      Commander of the defence in my city for an example was Slovenian, he told soldiers to lay weapons and go homes. He himself went to greet advancing Germans, one his unit rejected orders and shot two German soldiers on motorcycle.. only two German victims in very wide area.

      Yugoslav army had people of various nations serving everywhere across the country, you have some shiny examples of Croats fighting actually, but very few. On other hand you have many examples like one i stated above. And overall defence doctrine of Yugoslav army was wrong, rushing to borders to defend them. there is a book "Pad Kraljevine Jugoslavije", 3 volumes, explaining why and how it happened, would take ages to rephase it.

      That Slovene was by any chance the rabid anti-Communist Rupnik?

      All the generals in the Royal Yugoslav Army were either Serbs or Montenegrins, with the exception of a single Slovene, and that was Rupnik, and he was only a brigadier-general.

      The Royal Yugoslav Army was heavily dominated by the ethnic Serbs at the top. You cannot blame some Slovene for the minimal resistance it offered to the Germans in 1941.


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